Sarah replies, "I doubt you know how to pilot a plane yourself; but I also doubt you'd hesitate to judge a sober pilot as safer to fly with than a drunken one, or Liz as safer than a stranger."
Daimon says "You were referring to people having destinies. And I still disagreed, and said that Man still is basically evil, and that God does not exist."
Sarah says "If Man were basically evil, he could not have destinies to achieve. As for God, I don't have firsthand knowledge, I'll admit, but I know and trust someone who does."
Daimon says "If God does indeed exist, then there is no possibility for us to understand him, since God must be necessarily so _different_ from even us. It's much like a drawing on a piece of paper. Yes, we created the drawing, but it can never relate to us in three dimensional terms. On the other hand, Man's morality is seeped in how much pain they inflict upon themselves and others. They make the choice to harm others, and in making the choice they are therefore evil. By assuming the baseline that Man is evil, Man now has a point to work from, they are no longer trapped in the moral issues of pretending to have 'Fallen' or that they are more then they are."
Sarah replies, quite mildly, "Are you, then, willing to condemn every newborn child in the world to the electric chair or the gas chamber?"
Daimon says "I never said that. I simply said that Man is evil. It's a starting point of Nihilism."
Daimon says "Maybe I should say that every man, even the newborn babe, contains the capacity of evil."
Sarah says "The capacity for evil is not the same thing as evil itself. Just as the capacity for good, which every man also contains, is not the same thing as good itself."
Daimon says "There is a far greater tendency for man to act on his capacity to do evil."
Sarah says "By what measure are you judging?"
Daimon says "By the sheer amount of pain in the world. I do not have a measuring stick, but do you disagree that for every Mother Theresa, there's another million people wasting their lives in front of the idiot box?"
Sarah says "Or working to put their children through college. Or creating works of art, or pouring their souls into their music, or volunteering at hospitals, animal shelters, community theater groups, neighborhood watch programs."
Daimon says "I think you expect more good of Man than he, as a whole, is capable of."
Sarah says "I think you've been swayed a touch by that the exceptions are what one hears of, not the rule."
Daimon says "Does one disagree that Man is capable of great evils, far more then any demon can conceive, all in the name of their morals and ethics? Morality has driven more genocides in history then any one demon or creature."
Sarah says "I am aware of that, Daimon, as is my duty. But Man is also capable of - as you said - Mother Teresa. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Amnesty International.""
Daimon says "But such acts are laughably rare."
Sarah says "Are they?"
Daimon says "Certainly. For every Universal Declaration of Human Rights, there are two more genocides of Moslims in Serbia-Croatia. Or how about Rhuwanda? Or how about Nanking in 1945, and the fact that the Japanese actually changed textbooks to make the people responsible for the massacre into national heros?"
Sarah says "The Underground Railroad. National cancer centers. Antibiotics. Jeffrey Bentley's clean-burning fuel cells. The Terrestrial Planet Finder. Bone marrow transplants in utero for children with severe combined immune deficiency syndrome. Most of the good Man does goes on about you all the while, Daimon."
Daimon says "And all of it comes from one main point: life IS pain."
Sarah replies, "Evil comes from that, Daimon. Good comes from the other facet of truth: life does not /need/ to be pain."
Daimon says "But all that is worked for towards a perceived good has come from some pain in the past. The Underground Railroad was necessitated from Slavery. Clean-burning fuel cells came from the destruction of the enviroment. Every move toward 'good' has come from years of previous pain enacted upon the human race and worse."
Daimon says "Pain is caused largely by selfishness. Selfishness gives rise to evil. And evil is the condition of lacking God."
Sarah says "In contrast to the status after an improvement, Daimon, everything before it will be considered painful. I'm afraid I don't see your point."
Daimon says "I'm saying that Man is capable of great evils, and often perpetuates them upon his fellow Mankind. Realizing that Man is simply going with his nature often makes the violence that follows evil into a catalyst for mere entertainment. Humor is inherent in everything, especially the realization that we exist only in pain, and through violence is it shown. Then we laugh because, really, there is nothing left to do."
Sarah replies, quite gently, "But we do not exist only in pain, Daimon."
Sarah says "Men and Celestials alike."
Daimon says "The entire Symphony is a trap. And once that is realized, the rest is pointless. We simply find humor in the way it orchestrates to condemn us all to some eternity of pain. I've seen the hopelessness in the eyes of Man AFTER He's died; there is nothing for him here except to wait until it is all over."
Sarah says "There is one small flaw in your system, Daimon. Not all the world is Hell."
Daimon says "Enough of it is that it starts to cease to make a difference. And eventually, it will all go that direction."
Sarah says "Do you want to see that happen?"
Daimon says "Of course not. Why would I ever, in the universe, wish to condemn any soul to eternal hopelessness? I already know my own pain, I have no wish to spread it around. My best friend - my _agent_, tells this story about being a demon, well, a Balseraph, and yes I know I have told it several times. He says that being a Bal is like having your eyes ripped out of your head so that you're blind and in constant pain, and the only way to get everyone to understand you is to make them just as blind as well. I reply that I have no such interest in making others feel blind, but I am not ignorant to the evils of Mankind, and the pain they will feel afterwards."
Sarah considers this. "My. I hadn't heard that story before. Still - I do have a question for you. If you don't want to help the destruction of the universe along... why do you?"
Daimon says "I do not help the destruction of the universe. I mock the pain that is left in its wake. Humor comes from violence, it is up to us to laugh at it afterwards."
Sarah says "You eat of the grain, but do not hold yourself responsible for sowing its seed?"
Daimon says "I cause no harm to any living being."
Sarah says "But you are willing to profit by that harm that you will not cause."
Daimon frowns. "It's a semantic trap. I simply accept that every event, especially those which cause pain, are laughable. The universe is full of pain, I simply either make it more poignant or offset it by some other, lesser evil. I never claimed that I, myself, was not an evil being."
Sarah says "So everything in the universe, by your lights, is pain?"
Daimon says "I have seen little evidence otherwise."
Sarah says "Including Liz?"
Daimon says "Eventually Liz will leave, or find a more equitable angel who is more suited to her, or find further pleasure in extending her Superior's Word. At which time, yes, she too will be pain."
Sarah says "But not now."
Daimon says "No, not now. But I harbor no illusions, and it causes me pain to know there is an untenable gulf between the two of us, and that we are forced to live with it."
Sarah says "You harbor several illusions, Daimon."
Daimon says "I understand the machinations of the universe I live in to the extent that I possibly can."
Sarah says "You assume that they are machinations."
Sarah says "Possibly, in Hell, they are."
Sarah says "But we are not in Hell now."
Daimon says "I would imply that it is the next best thing; Hell waiting to become, a seething pot of potentiality which will eventually feed itself to the Pit."
Sarah says "That's another illusion: the belief that of necessity Hell is the end of all existence. There may be a chance that it will prove to be so; but it is hardly foreordained."
Daimon says "I would point out that there are far more beings which inhabit Hell then there are of the so-called 'Saved souls', who may simply be consumed in a large selfish sucking pit of essence to feed itself for all we know. Is it foreordained, no, but the prevalance of the forces of Hell upon Mankind to push those capacities for evil for the majority of the population is undeniable."
Sarah says, mildly, "I think the prevalence is quite deniable."
Daimon says "Is it? How many people own TV sets or read magazines or newspapers? How many humans _fuck_, because it's just something to do on a Saturday night and they especially like some part of each other's anatomy? How about the rising of the hemlines in direct proportion to the dropping off of ethical issues?"
Sarah says "What dropping off of ethical issues, Daimon?"
Daimon says "Damn near everything. 50% of all marriages break off in divorce now, you know that? Is that possibly a good thing? Hell, Jerry Springer is on at 4pm, there's GOT to be something wrong with that."
Sarah says "Which is better, Daimon, marriages ending in divorce or men and women living together for the rest of their lives steeped in bitterness and hatred toward one another? And who in the world is Jerry Springer?"
Sarah, clueless Cherub :)
Daimon says "Jerry Springer is, uh, well... Imagine in your mind a Bal of Factions who hangs out with Lust with his own Talk Show. But this is beside the point - how many of those divorces are caused by infidelity? By nothing more then Lust?"
Sarah says "How much of that bitterness would have been, before? How much of that Lust is a change, how much of it simply hidden a few hundred years ago and seen now? Daimon, the world that the humans live in has changed, yes, but I have yet to see that it is necessarily for the worse."
Daimon says "It's a different pain from before. You are correct, the world has changed. Instead of Puritanism and the Inquisition and genocides of Jews in Spain, now we have nihilism and corruption and genocides of Moslims in Serbia-Croatia. You are correct, the world has changed. But the essential capability of evil in man has not."
Sarah says "Neither has the essential capability for good in man, Daimon. I much prefer this era to the Dark Ages, and to judge by expressions and attitude, so do humans."
Daimon says "I don't believe in the essential capability of good in Man. Anything that is Good has come from an Evil, and must be worked for to be attained in any form. Even then, when this so-called 'good' comes about, someone will lose in the end."
Sarah says "Good must be worked for, yes. Does an apple tree come from an evil?"
Daimon says "I'm not talking about trees, I'm talking about Mankind."
Sarah says "If a man plants an apple tree, he has accomplished something good - flowers, green, fruit to feed himself or his family. What evil does this come from?"
Daimon says "The fruit that had to die to produce the seed, the lack of nutrients in the soils, the death of habitat created by the changing of a small landscape. Planting a tree is difficult to prove it is evil, but it is a difficult job for one to make such a small good in the world - years of tending to the tree, years of patiences. I did not say Man was Evil, I said man had the capacity for Evil, and there is much work to overcome it."
Sarah says "One habitat replaced by another; a fruit fulfilling its purpose in existence; nutrients returned to the soil by those who partake of the fruit. It is true: one must put in effort to produce good. But nothing is wrong with that."
Daimon says "But the tendancy of Man is not to put forth effort en masse to produce good. It is much easier to sit by and give in to the capacity for Evil. Through which produces hopelessness - in the name of morality Mankind puts on the trappings of society and turns itself into sheep which herds itself into the Pit. There is nothing to do but standby and see the humor in the situation."
Sarah says "Or appreciate, and encourage, the effort that is put into producing good; to inspire the possibility; to introduce individuals to work that they can love, rather than endure, that produces value, rather than horror."
Daimon says "There are far too many to save, and for most, it is far too late. There is little value in saving one, or two individuals to selectively send to that special little group of the so-called 'Saved', while watching many thousands go to their deaths, ignorant of what awaits them."
Sarah says "Any value, no matter how small, is by definition an improvement over hopelessness."
Daimon says "But in general, there is nothing. You save only a select few, and count yourself good while discounting the rest of Humanity who gives into their innate capacity for Evil."
Sarah says "Something does not, /can/ not, equal nothing, Daimon. We mourn for those who do not save themselves, even as we assist those we can toward the highest they can achieve."
Daimon says "But does the saving of the One offset the damning of the multitudes?"
Sarah says "If it didn't, why would you have been concerned about the possible deaths from the Shedite's Prank?"
Daimon says "If people die, there is no one left to laugh."
Sarah says "Exactly, Daimon. The only difference between us in that is that you mean laughing at pain, and I, laughing with joy."
Daimon says "Most of the humor in society comes from laughing at pain. Take Lawyer jokes, where a lawyer is portrayed as swine or worse. People laugh at lawyer jokes, simply because they acknowledge them to be the catalysts of calamity and misfortune - either by winning something away from someone and bankrupting them, putting them in prison, or protecting those who have already been harmed horribly. Why should we laugh? Because we are acknowledging the pain and the societal revulsion against lawyers, and no other reason."
Daimon says "I laugh only because I cannot stand it anymore. It's either that or shoot myself."
Sarah says "That's odd, Daimon. I thought you'd managed to find a third option."
Daimon says "My third option is to go on living, and not think about it very much anymore."
Sarah smiles. "And do an impressive amount of cuddling with Liz. I'd imagine that would help."
Daimon says "Well, that's different. It's better to make someone else happy and attempt to alleviate their loneliness. I suppose I know exactly how it feels."
Liz says "Daimon's good for me. I was starting to forget about how to be capricious."
Sarah smiles at Daimon. "I quite agree. Do you enjoy it?"
Daimon says "Do I enjoy making Liz feel better? Certainly. Why shouldn't I?"
Sarah says "Which do you enjoy more? Making Liz feel better, or staring in horror at the atrocities of the world and trying desperately to find humor in them before they drive you mad?"
Daimon says "I make Liz feel better because she Needs to feel better, that's appealing to my nature, it has nothing to do with my intellectual qualities. When she is gone, and she will be, eventually either through my death or other forceful partings, I will be forced to examine the horrors of my existance once again, and I _will_ find humor in it, because I have no interest in losing what is left of my flagging sanity."
Sarah says "In other words, you'd rather make her feel better."
Daimon says "Yes, I would rather make her feel better. Is there something inherently wrong with this?"
Sarah smiles.
Sarah says "Not at all."
Sarah leans over and kisses Daimon on the cheek.
Daimon says "Of course there is something wrong with it - I do it because it makes _me_ feel better, and I like feeling better because I'm selfish."
Daimon says "Oh, don't do that. I'll fall apart."
Sarah says "There's nothing wrong with making people feel better because it makes you feel better. That's a perfectly good reason for it."
Sarah kisses *Liz* on the cheek, then!
Daimon shrugs. "See, there ya go."
Sarah says "Cherubim do that all the time, Daimon. I was simply wondering if you knew it."
Daimon says "Kissing people? I assume that it is just a factor of Angelic existance. I have nothing against angels, except those who come after me with blazing swords. Personally, I would like to think that the people I have met around Liz will continue to keep her happy long after I'm dead and gone."
Sarah says "Personally, I would like to think that the rather amusing gentleman Liz introduced me to will continue to keep her happy - and to be happy along with her - for quite some time."
Daimon says "But I'm a realist. I know, eventually, a geas will be invoked or I will be ordered or someone will come for me which will end things. All I can do is arrange for the eventuality of when this happens."
Sarah says "Why is that an inevitable eventuality?"
Daimon says "Because that is the way of my life. Demonic life is just as empty and hopeless as those of the souls of those who inhabit Hell. That is why they continue to enact individual pain among others. It's like the eyes - only those who can understand what they feel are those who are suffering."
Demiurge leaves Daimon's Redemption to these excellent angels, and keeps an eye on his Geasa.
Sarah replies, very gently, "Only, Daimon, because you choose to suffer."
Daimon knows all about his geasa.
Daimon says "No, you do not understand what it is to be Lilim. I bear the brunt of my mother's sins, and I must carry them to the end of time."
Daimon is waiting for the day when he is ordered to murder Liz.
Sarah says "No-one carries the sins of any other, Daimon. No person can be saved or damned by anyone's choice but his - or her - own."
Daimon says "You do not understand. I was born in the Pit. It is handed down to the progeny of Lilith to bear out her sins for her Pride. There is no analagous Choir, and we are trapped and entwined within our own geasa, many of which will never run out to maintain ourselves being entrapped. There is no escape, this is our curse. And we must either cope, go insane, or laugh at the sheer mockery of our lives."
Sarah says "That's the worst of the lies you have accepted, Daimon. The truth is this: there is no such thing as original sin. Not for the children of Eve; not for the children of Lilith."
Sarah says "If there were, I would quite simply not exist."
Daimon says "We aren't cursed with Original Sin. We're cursed with Lilith's sin. There is a difference. If there was no sin, why are we born where we are? Why aren't we human?"
Sarah says "Where you are born, Daimon, does not matter. It is your choice to accept that place as right - or not. To endure hopelessness unending - or to strive for joy. To cope or go insane or laugh in horror - or to work to create something better for yourself."
Liz wakes up, sighs.
Liz says "Okay, you're doing it wrong again."
Liz says "You don't argue philosophy with Daimon."
Daimon shrugs.
Liz says "Philosophy never saved a soul."
Sarah is not saving a soul, Liz, she's arguing philosophy. :)
Daimon says "Not mine, at any rate. Besides, I've seen too much horror to just simply accept that you can 'work to do better'."
Liz grabs Daimon, hauls him over to the couch, pushes him down, straddles his hips, and kisses him until he can't breathe.
Daimon hyperventalates, and lays there.
Sarah coughs delicately, steps aside, and notes that *all* the IC Sarah is doing is stepping aside for exactly that, yes. :)
Liz smooches the tip of Daimon's nose. "That's how you argue philosophy with Daimon."
Daimon says "I have noticed that Liz _always_ wins the arguments."
Liz says "Thus endeth the lesson."
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